I had Windows hate during the Vista age, and i just got a mac.

Hee hee

@Kurkos
Following trends, don’t you? Now you should find a boyfriend (sorry, couldn’t resist)?

I believe that there are people who genuinely like MacOSX (I can even believe that there are such perversions as genuine love with Linux). But. Let’s just ignore for a moment that Windows is technically superior to MacOSX in almost every imaginable way. Let’s ignore that I personally would take Aero over Aqua any day and time. Can you provide a single RATIONAL argument for using MacOSX?

Let me, let me!

1. iTunes and Quick Time blow almost all other simple multimedia viewers and editors straight out of the water.
[“almost all”, because there may be some that I haven’t tried.]

2. iWork is simpler than MSO (and equally capable as far as ordinary users are concerned, I think).

3. After that, there is almost nothing else you would need [Ok, Ok, video games are available, via VMs if necessary].

4. The hideous UNIX underpinnings of Mac OS X aren’t a problem if you don’t need to look at them (so unless something really goes bonkers, you will never know and thus never be bothered).

Sorry, you lost me at #1. iTunes is perhaps the worst, most bloated (by every definition), most painful media manager ever devised… and made all the worse by forcing it to manage everything else about an iDevice. I have no issues with Macs or OS X (except maybe its virtual memory management, or maybe it’s an issue with Safari directly)... but iTunes has just gotten worse over each release.

Yeah, but I just installed it, and a) it works like a charm (no “bloat” that I can perceive) and b) it’s just so much better than all other “media library based” music players.

Now, if you don’t need a “media library” (if you just select in Explorer and click play) than you won’t need iTunes (iTunes 10.5 is anything but slow, however).

—————————————-

Also, I was talking about iTunes and Quick Time on a Mac, not their Windows counterparts.

iTunes is slow and unresponsive a lot of the time, but it syncs my iPhone very well and gives me access to vast amounts of legal content. So much so that even with its faults, it’s my primary media player now.

Just to clarify, when I say unresponsive, I’m talking about when its in the process of syncing, it locks up the entire UI, preventing me from pausing the music that’s currently playing while I handshakes with the device. It’s an annoying UI glitch, but the flawless sync makes up for that in spades.

and further, that’s iTunes on Windows, not OSX.

Winamp WorksForMe™.

@Admin:

I think that’s more than a glitch. I think that’s evidence of a severe inability to understand how threading works with a comms stack at one end and a GUI at the other end.

Who writes this stuff?

ITunes isn’t great shakes on OS X either, though it has gotten better in version 10. Much of my grief applies to the software on both platforms. I’ve had it corrupt my library on OS X (then current version Snow-Leopard), and there are occasions where it will get into a sync snit where it takes forever to sync my iPod Touch. I still stand by my belief iTunes is the worst piece of software Apple still makes.

“Can you provide a single RATIONAL argument for using MacOSX?”

The fact someone is responsible for the drivers inside the Mac? In Windows land, if you buy a laptop from an OEM, and the bluetooth driver inside the laptop is a mess for example, Microsoft will point to the OEM, the OEM will point to the company that made the bluetooth dongle, and you are left with a problematic bluetooth. Repeat for every piece of hardware inside the machine. At least on macs, there is ONE company responsible for everything. This makes everything more reliable.

Same for bundled crapware. If McAfee trial edition fails to uninstall (a common problem i see in friend’s PCs), Microsoft will point to the OEM, the OEM will point to McAfee, and you are left with junk inside your PC. And no, i don’t want to manually delete files and registery entires like I did in the 90s.

Generally, the mac feels more like a PS3 with apps or an iPad. Everything is designed from the same company and just works, but of course you lose some customizability. Some people like this, some don’t.

Oh, and mac laptops come with a proper battery that actually lets you do stuff on the go, for all screen sizes. On PCs on the other hand, you should add to the advertized purchase price of a PC the cost of the “extended” battery you will inevitably need to purchase if you want to do things on the go, since practically no PC above 14inches has a proper battery.

@Kurkos
Again with you “But in MacOS hardware never breaks”. Well, it does. They’ve done CLEAR CUT three times in the last ~10 years. And they break something with every single update: just read about wifi problems (what’s with it) in Lion. In vertically integrated market. Unbelievable.

Let’s see.

On one side, Microsoft provides a platform (INCLUDING WHQL/WLK tests), vendors write drivers and submit those to MS. MS reruns WLK tests and includes drivers inbox/winupdate. This way IHV provides its knowledge about hardware in the code itself and Microsoft provides its knowledge about OS in the test harness. Everybody happy.

On the other side Apple HAS NO knowledge in the field of specific hardware, and based on your word they are writing (though I actually doubt it – I’m pretty sure it’s more like Microsoft’s approach modulo automated testing) drivers where even first party IHV-s sometimes fail.

@RCSE
1. I hate both iTunes and QT. Not for the last part for crapware (Apple seems to be obsessed with it). Maybe that’s because I don’t use “library based media collection” – so I can’t really judge on that merit.

2. And Office Starter instakills any iWork thing right away. It’s not strictly OS related though.

3. Not a “rational argument”, is it? I have everything I need on Windows (and lots of it unavailable on MacOS).

4. It’s not even about UNIX. It’s about “culture”. Let’s stitch some weird Frankenstein in the kernel: Mach + BSD + homemade IOKit on top. BSD processes are really Mach tasks, IOKit is used for everything but network drivers, where BSD model comes into play and so on, UNIX 12-bits-of-security coexisting with file only subset of NT ACLs and Mach ports security and so on. Not enough? OK, let’s stitch weird Frankenstein as THE development platform: C + Smalltalk. It becomes even weirder when they do Obj-C++: two distinct exception models, two distinct object models, two distinct funargs – in fact there are two parallel and incompatible languages for the price of one. No, thanks.

“Again with you “But in MacOS hardware never breaks”. Well, it does. They’ve done CLEAR CUT three times in the last ~10 years. And they break something with every single update”

What i know from personal experience is that most Windows laptops get shipped with the crappiest bluetooth, ethernet and sometimes wifi possible, and it keeps getting worse. The designers are under constant pressure from the eggheads that typically run companies like Dell, HP etc to use the cheapest parts possible, and so they select the worst suppliers. There is no explaination. On some cases, the pop up window that appears when you press the volume controls buttons crashes some games or throws media players off fullscreen.

I ve been tolareting this kind of annoyances since forever (and the uninstallable crapware), but the i thought why? I don’t want an Aveo that’s made out of compressed sh!t, i want a grande punto or at least a civic, even if it costs more. Sinilarly, i don’t want a PC made from throwing parts together, i want a mac

Plus, the apple tax doesn’t really exist. If you want a Windows laptop that’s borderline tolerable like the one Asus offers, plus the $20 “software customize” option to get a PC without uninstallable bloat, plus the cost of an extended battery plus the cost of Pinnacle Studio (because movie maker is horrible at editing and also can’t even save in mp4) and you get a cost that maybe exceeds the cost of a mac. But hey, you can save monet by buying a mac, just like Chevrolet customers save money by buying a car that’s going to clap out in 6 years.

PS: I never had any WiFi issues with my mac. Byt sometimes my Windows laptop (intel card) disconnects from the router for no reason.

no explanation = no other explanation

save money by buying a mac = save money by buying a pc

@Kurkos
Ah, and your “better hardware” argument. First, it’s not OS related. Second, it looks like you compare some cheap low end low margin laptops with latest generation MBP and seem to ignore plenty of choices on high end part of the scale. You can “adjust” pretty much everything from battery life to core bitcrunching/gaming power.

As for your anecdote, I never had problems with hardware on Windows machines and unlike your shiny new Mac, I’ve used aforementioned machines since… well, since forever.

And speaking of crapware. Yes, it’s annoying but I would definitely argue that it’s uninstallable. If anything you can just reinstall Windows and activate it with OEM key provided on the bottom.

I have to agree with Kurkosdr. Even if you only get it to run Windows, a mac makes a very good laptop. Of the 4 laptops I’ve owned, their construction is the sturdiest and their OS compliments the hardware nicely. Their keyboards have a good feel and are comfortable to type on for hours. The built in battery lasts around 7-8 hours at full brightness while I’m coding. And the multi-touch gestures on a big glass touch pad make using the trackpad about as painless as it can get. The OS seems to scale better for a laptop form factor as well. Oh, and sleeping and waking happen as fast as you can open the lid.

I like Windows on my desktop, but when it comes to laptops, I’d get another mac if I lost the one I had.

Basically, it’s not an issue of functionality; PCs and Macs can all do the same stuff. However, the user experience of the mac is more polished. Lighter, longer battery life, smoother waking and sleeping, and no unusual visual glitches like icons having to be redrawn and such. Rarely does OSX feel like its lock up or busy swapping.

And when I’m sitting on a train several times a week trying to write code or build apps, that experience matters. It’s more than worth the premiums.

“Ah, and your “better hardware” argument.”

It’s not so much about the hardware itself. It’s about the drivers. In Windows land, they keep getting worse. At least on macs the drivers for everything inside the mac are a given. You won’t get a Bluetooth that drops connection after 20 seconds or volume buttons that crash games and media players.

And yes,these problem often appear in high end models, because the OEMs use the same (cheap-ass) supplier the do in their low end models.

i hate when people cherrypick hardware bugs in macs to say that the quality is the same. sure I can name dozens of driver bugs in macs, but the situation of PCs in much much worse.
you often have two sound panels the oem and the windows. ditto for video card and wireless, bluetooth.
on desktops I prefer a PC because of the simplicity. but the vertical integration pays off big time on laptops, because laptops need a higher level of fine tailoring that oem’s can’t provide. using a PC laptop feels like using a badly assembled product, there is no cohesion.

@garegin
And you LOVE to cherrypick “hardware bugs” on “PCs”, right?
Sometimes I have that impression that Mac userbase mostly lives in the past too. They’ve used to that “but our hardware is so-o-o-o much better” flawed argument and they didn’t have enough will to scrape it when Mac became a PC.

Yes, Macs DO have hardware problems. Yes, it’s even worse to have such problems in “vertically integrated” product. Yes, Apple doesn’t give a sh1t about quality as long as their sales don’t suffer. And yes, Mac faithful trying to downplay any problems let Apple lower that bar over and over.

I’ve used (for significant period of time) about dozen of different laptop models/vendors (including Lenovo, Toshiba, Acer, Samsung, Dell and, yes, Apple) ranging from middle to high end. Some of them I’ve upgraded. Guess what, NONE of them had hardware problems (yes, even Apple).

Combining knowledge from both IHV and OS vendor plus automatic testing is WAY better then not combining that and not having automatic testing. It doesn’t matter either your hardware is “vertically integrated” or not – on this level of complexity only engineering process matters – not who controls what.

I know it’s anecdotal, but I haven’t experienced any hardware problems on my macbook. My IBM, my Toshiba and my Dell notebooks did, however, have issues.

I travel a lot, so I need something light and sturdy, and so far, I’ve not come across anything as sturdy as the billeted aluminium body my macbook has.

And really, it’s not about the hardware, it’s about the user experience. Why, when I close a Windows notebook, does it take 15 seconds to sleep, then another 15 to wake back up, while my macbook does it in the time it takes to open the lid? Sure, both go to sleep and wake up, something Linux can’t even faithfully claim, but on similar hardware, the user experience is nicer; something many are willing to pay a premium for.

It’s like paying for a car with better suspension for a smoother ride.

Oh, I’ve remembered one that actually HAS HAD problems. This one: http://www.bing.com/search?q=hp+dv9000+fried

Not exactly “outdated drivers” problem, is it? And guess what, Apple had exact same problems in the past (and there are reports of heat dissipation problems in 2011 models).

Just to reiterate, I’m not trying to tell that Mac hardware is bad – I’m telling that that Mac hardware is just average (at the same time their software has its good, bad and ugly sides).

@Administrator
> while my macbook does it in the time it takes to open the lid?

That’s exactly what Windows does if you don’t leave it for a long time. Hybrid sleep: hibernate everything to disk just in case, but instead of immediately going to S4 – go to S3 and wake up immediately.

As for Mac, I recall they’ve never been good at sleep: drain battery and then just die with all user’s data. Did they revolutionary fixed that (I really don’t know – didn’t have a look for a long time already)?

Macs will automatically hibernate if they run low on battery. Two new Windows laptops I have access to take about 15 seconds to wake up when you open the lid; They sit and churn. My macbook, on the other hand, is on literally as soon as the lid is open.

Even on my desktop, i hit a key to wake up the computer and it sits there blank and unresponsive for several seconds while it reinitialized stuff. If the wait time can’t be made shorter, at least have some kind of indicator that the computer is still alive and waking up.

@Administrator
All Windows laptops that I have wake up instantly if they went to sleep “recently” (actual time could be set in power policy http://i.imgur.com/KNgNC.png – notice that default lid action is Sleep which gives you instant resume).

I personally prefer Windows’s default behavior: if you didn’t use your laptop for 6 hours – maybe it’s a good idea to stop sucking battery at the expense of 15 extra seconds you spend when you’re back. If you don’t like this – you can always set it to month or two and rely on the http://i.imgur.com/XGxwQ.png to put your laptop to hibernation when it couldn’t be postponed anymore.

mac hardware actually fails a lot. that is not what i’m claiming here, that mac hardware has magic pixie dust on it. but macs have better integration and because laptops have lot of quirks integration makes for a better user experience.
take Lenovo for example, their hardware is excellent, way better than apple. but their software is cluncky and awkward.

Also, the smooth user experience goes beyond the hardware into support. If your mac has an issue you can take it to a company store and have it repaired.

I’m sure many of us are competent enough to do our own minor repairs on a notebook. But frankly, that’s not how I like spending my evenings and weekends anymore. Computers, especially laptops, are so comoditized, it’s gotten to the point where I’d just want to bring it in and say “here, you fix it”. Though I’ve never had to yet.

And Lenovos are good, but I’ve never use one that felt as solid as the aluminum macbooks; nor as light.

the proof is in the pudding. the people that can afford macs get them. i was looking at a freebsd conference. everyone was using unibody mcpos. so cut the crap about ihipsters. the only way pc laptops can be not annoying is if you install a vannilla windows and not get all the gismod that oems give you.

Just my opinion, but problems in vertcally integrated products like the mac are better than problems with Windows PCs. If a mac model has a problem, it will be all over the forums, and so you can be aware of it and postpone the purchase. With Windows PCs, nobody cares if a particular HP Pavilion(random_alphanumeral_string) or Dell Inspirion(other_random_alphanumeral_string) has a problem, so everytime you buy a PC, you are rolling the dice.

> the people that can afford macs get them

It’s bad… BAD idea to use universal quantification as an argument. Such an argument could be falsified by providing a single example that doesn’t fit. I can afford Mac and I not only didn’t get it but I DON’T WANT it.

But even if you’ve used more modest quantifier – it’s still invalid. In US everybody who can afford internet connection can afford Mac. Internet connection is ~$50+/month and Mac mini is $600 on newegg right now. Get a 12 month 0% APR loan and it’s yours. If you count ridiculously overpriced TV cable, landline/mobile phone plans and so on – then even below average wage families could afford it. Still Mac internet presence in US is around 15%. Interesting, that in Europe, where just about everybody could afford Mac too, situation is even worse – Mac’s internet presence share is below 7%.