Here is one of the rare cases where I almost fully agree with you. One thing that I don’t agree is that attacks like this don’t work. At least this one is mostly truth (see Google’s profits profile to understand that they desperately need your private data). And “Get a Mac” campaign was full of utter bullcrap and still worked pretty well for Apple.

“And “Get a Mac” campaign was full of utter bullcrap and still worked pretty well for Apple.”

[citation needed] I was embarassed to bring out my macbook pro during the period the “get a mac” ads were run, because I didn’t want to be seen as a elitist fag. Fortunatelly the ads were never rolled out on the TV here, so most people outside the CS department of the university didn’t know the ads even existed. Hey Apple, not every mac user is an elitist d-bag. IMO Apple may have won the elitists with the get a mac ads, but they lost some of the non elitist people who just wanted an all-in-one, tightly integrated computer. Plus, many geeky people actually felt stereotyped by the mac ads. Mud slinging never works.

A good ad for Microsoft’s online services would be to emphasize the advantages of their services, and prominently advertize the “unique advantages” of their privacy policy that cannot be found on the privacy policy “other services like Google’s services”. That way, Microsoft could had taken on google without having to sling mud and be seen as the guy on the soap box.

@Kurkosdr: If it sold computers, it worked. That was the purpose of the campaign. It might have alienated people like you, but it produced far more new sales than it lost.

The point is, mud slinging does work in advertising, if you’re careful with it. That’s not to say I approve of this Microsoft campaign, but then again, Microsoft has always succeeded DESPITE their marketing department, not BECAUSE of it.

Well, this -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFCSp23xl40
Good for a laugh, but that’s about it.

If it sold computers, it worked. That was the purpose of the campaign. It might have alienated people like you, but it produced far more new sales than it lost.

My point is that they would have sold more computers if they had made a proper ad, outlining the comparative advantages of Macs over “other systems” and let the public do the comparison. For example, advertise OS X superior multimedia tools instead of having that PC guy say “multinedia on the PC is pain”, advertise OS X superb boot times and lack of crapware instead of showing an obese PC guy etc That way you can make yourself look better than the competition without having to becone a douche.

I think I see Kurk’s point. It’s rather telling that Apple is selling more Macs now than they did at the height of their PC/Mac mudslinging. In fact, they’re selling more Macs without advertising them at all! People who were turned off of them by the ads that do more to make Mac users look like arseholes are probably more open to them after seeing them in the store.

But the reputation is still not good enough where I want to be see using a Macbook in public, with the glowy Apple. I still don’t want to be see as that douche —> http://j.mp/yhwyKz

And my point is that they’ve actually built perception with those ads, even though they’ve alienated some of the more technical guys (including me). Microsoft didn’t advertise Vista – so Apple stepped in and did this for them. Just compare the customer satisfaction of Vista (Apple’s advertising) and Windows 7 (Microsoft advertising). Where exactly this difference comes from (not that 7 didn’t have improvements over Vista, but Vista had A LOT more improvements over XP and I’ve actually USED all of them)?

One of the “best” ones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjo629JpTyE
So Apple’s commercial tells me how Microsoft puts all money in advertising? Cool story.

“So Apple’s commercial tells me how Microsoft puts all money in advertising?”

It does indeed require some uncanny suspension of disbelief for one to take the advertisement of one company about the excesses of advertising of another company seriously.

But, having said that, one has to wonder also why people pay good premiums for essentially tap water in plastic bottles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfPAjUvvnIc

Or even fast food re-labeled as something non fast-food sounding:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cA2FKalKc

I have some nagging suspicion that all three of these phenomena are somehow related to each other, but what am I supposed to know about that?

If the goal was only to make Vista look bad, then sure it helped (though they weren’t the only ones saying such). But if the goal was to sell Macs and OS X, it really didn’t work as well. People chose to “stay put”, not upgrade…. Not to switch to Mac. — Which is pretty much the same as what happens in political advertising. Negative ads work in keeping your opponents home, but not so much in getting them to support your candidate. This is OK in most elections in America as it is zero-sum winner take all affairs, but not with product sales where you have more than a choice of two.

“And do the folks over at Microsoft really think the public won’t see through this and realize it is a cheap attempt to promote their own online services?”

To you, maybe. But people are hardly the rational creatures you think they are:

http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

http://www.skepdic.com/communalreinforcement.html

http://www.skepdic.com/motivatedreasoning.html

I think I’ll also take the opportunity to mention this one occasion where a certain guy told everyone at Jerkface’s blog about how Quicktime’s UI relaxes him:

http://www.techbroil.com/2012/01/goodbye-apple-and-go-to-hell-itunes.html?showComment=1327104739040#c7773551807268294857

We human beings are perhaps not really the rational creatures that we would like to think of ourselves as, but I digress.

“We human beings are perhaps not really the rational creatures that we would like to think of ourselves as, but I digress.”

This unintentional hilarity probably has something to do with my lack of sleep, and here’s proof:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656292/

Now watch as I invalidate my previous statement with “but I digress”.

Couldn’t this be a part of a longer advertising campaign related to the upcoming Microsoft/Nokia worldwide push? In that context I can understand, while not admiring, what Microsoft is trying to do.

There’s been “silent” criticism of Google, wrapped as ads for someone else, in blogs and articles for a long time now. This next move doesn’t surprise me, even though I’m not so certain about its success, since so many have become habitual users of Google services.

What is it with you people and conspiracies?

Where is the evidence for this “silent” criticism of Google, wrapped as ads for someone else?

What, for that matter, would the point of “silent” criticism be?

“Where exactly this difference comes from (not that 7 didn’t have improvements over Vista, but Vista had A LOT more improvements over XP and I’ve actually USED all of them)?”

So the lack of a fold out All Programs sub-menu was an improvement? Really?

Also the ugly black/green colour combination was better than blue because…

And then there was the fact that UAC would pester you all of the time, because MS could not be bothered to explain to users what it is and how it works (users could then change some of their routines ever so slightly, and stop seeing UAC prompts all of the time).

> So the lack of a fold out All Programs sub-menu was an improvement? Really?
In case you’ve missed, it’s got that little useful thing called search. AND it has an MRU list of programs. ALL of the start menu manipulations are done faster in Vista then in XP.

> Also the ugly black/green colour combination was better than blue because…
Oh, cool. It’s ugly because you’ve told so and my job is to explain something? Ri-i-i-ight. I’ll take Aero over Luna any day and time. Heck, I’ll take Aqua over Luna any day and time and I heavily dislike Aqua. Your point is?

> And then there was the fact that UAC would pester you all of the time
It didn’t and it still doesn’t. But “advanced users” like you, could always disable it along with “unnecessary services” likes Windows Update or Task Scheduler.

> because MS could not be bothered to explain to users what it is and how it works
Um, even UAC dialog ITSELF explains everything pretty clearly. Not to say that embedded help has good overview of what it is (like this one http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/Windows7/What-are-User-Account-Control-settings – sorry Win7 version).

“In case you’ve missed, it’s got that little useful thing called search.”

Can you show me how many users even know that they can search for programs? Can you show me how many want to? But even if they all did, how does that have anything to do with the lack of All Programs sub-menu?

“ALL of the start menu manipulations are done faster in Vista then in XP.”

Well, if by “all” you mean “none” then we can agree; otherwise I must assume your mousing skills are below average.

You do understand that Classic Shell is considered to be a sanity saving extension to Windows Vista (and 7) by many users, no?

“[You dislike Aqua and I dislike Luna…] Your point is?”

Do you know of anyone who would buy an ugly car, ugly clothes, ugly anything?

Why do you believe that they would buy an ugly version of an OS, then?

“It didn’t and it still doesn’t.”

Of course it does, and it will continue to do so, until no XP (and earlier) era program is in use…

And, of course, the system is self-defeating since users will authorise anything, to get their program to run.

MS should have gone with transparent sandboxing for all apps, but instead they chose to inconvenience their users (no small wonder they stayed with XP).

“Um, even UAC dialog ITSELF explains everything pretty clearly.”

No, it doesn’t explain anything.
And nobody reads help files (really now, you’re not this naive…).

> Can you show me how many users even know that they can search for programs?
Oh, you open Start menu and see edit box with “Search programs and files” it it. What could it possibly mean?

> Can you show me how many want to?
Right after you show me how many users still want to manually lookup for an item in dozens of menus. Or maybe you can explain why directory.google.com redirects where it redirects?

> Well, if by “all” you mean “none” then we can agree; otherwise I must assume your mousing skills are below average.
NoU. How original. Did you even use Vista or 7?

> Do you know of anyone who would buy an ugly car, ugly clothes, ugly anything?
I know there should exist some perverts, but yes most normal people prefer normal things.

> Why do you believe that they would buy an ugly version of an OS, then?
Yep, that’s why XP is dying off for good.

> Of course it does, and it will continue to do so, until no XP (and earlier) era program is in use…
Oh sure. Care to provide your definition of “pester” and “all the time” then?

> MS should have gone with transparent sandboxing for all apps
Oh, like App-V for example? Ah, that doesn’t exist in your universe yet.

> but instead they chose to inconvenience their users
Not “users” – only raving loonatics.

> Did you even use Vista or 7?
I recall, we’ve already had similar conversation about WP7. Quite “surprisingly” you’ve never even seen one and still have Strong Opinion.

Let me guess, you haven’t ever worked with Vista. /me covers my crystal ball

In Windows 7 I typically launch most applications from the start search. “snip” for snipping tool, “calc” for calculator, “note” for notepad, etc.

Likewise, I do the same with spotlight in OSX. “xc” for xcode, “subl” for sublime text 2, “itu” for itunes, and so on.

Combine that with alt-tabbing and I’m able to hide the dock completely on my macbook. Which is pretty handy given the limited screen real estate.

“What is it with you people and conspiracies?”

Sometimes I don’t understand your point of view. What connection do you see between quite standard commercial strategies and conspiracies? Or is the sole connection that I wrote it and I must be a big belivier of the weirdiest conspiracies imagination allows, don’t I?

@Kim:

Look, I read what you write. Do you?

“There’s been “silent” criticism of Google, wrapped as ads for someone else, in blogs and articles for a long time now.”

I called you out on the “silent” criticism and pointed out that you have absolutely no evidence for this supposed placement by third parties.

It might be a stretch to label it a conspiracy theory, but it’s sure as heck a paranoid fantasy. Close enough, then.

“This next move doesn’t surprise me, even though I’m not so certain about its success, since so many have become habitual users of Google services.”

It’s only a next move if there was a prior move (see above). And if it’s just a “move,” then you would be correct in describing it as a normal strategy (probably a borked one, but then we are talking about the Microsoft marketing arm here).

Clearly there would be very little point in you mentioning the “next” move stuff unless you firmly believed in the existence of the “prior” move.

Paranoid fantasy, I tell you. And it’s not like you don’t have a history of this. Your last post, incorrectly declaring that “proprietary” OSes routinely hide the details of, or even the existence of, security holes? Paranoid fantasy. That long-running thread about DCI and Hollywood oligopoly? Paranoid fantasy.

You just don’t seem to be very happy unless something murky and possibly immoral/illegal is going on out there in the business world that you dimly perceive but for the existence of which you cannot actually formulate an argument.

I don’t know what your definition of paranoid fantasy is, but that’s mine.

UAC on Vista was silly because it popped up everytime you wanted to open any program. Even “Computer”. I never understood why it did that. Viruses and spyware don’t wait for a second or third time to destroy or steal your data, all it takes is to run them just one time to get the damage done. So, all UAC had to do is pop out the first time you wanted to open some program, and then never ask again for that particular program (which is exactly what Windows 7 does, because 7 wasn’t a rushed job like Vista was). The most ridiculous part of Vista’s UAC was that it didn’t popped out for programs that start on boot (obviously), and it didn’t warned you if a program tried to put itself in the startup chain. So, all a keylogger/adware had to do is get somehow permission from the user to run the first time, and then put itself on the CurrentVersion/Run. Then it had a free pass. UAC on Vista really reminded of this http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2007-11-16/

The only explanation I can give for VIsta’s UAC behavior is that it was in alpha stage and then Vista was shipped before UAC was finished (aka before it got the ability to remember programs you had authorized to run). Which proves again that Vista was a rushed job to rip off people.

“UAC on Vista was silly because it popped up everytime you wanted to open any program. Even “Computer”.”

No it didn’t. You’ve either made that up, or you’re grossly exaggerating.

“The most ridiculous part of Vista’s UAC was that it didn’t popped out for programs that start on boot (obviously)”

Any program set to run in HKLM would have been put there by an admin. What did UAC do wrong here?

“and it didn’t warned you if a program tried to put itself in the startup chain”

Which is correct behaviour; at that point you’d have already elevated the program to do what it needs to do to the Program Files structure and HKLM hive. UAC gets out of the way because an admin is running the installer.

If you claim that UAC and NT’s user separation don’t work, check how much malware these days has to confine itself to HKCU, the user’s profile, and the ProgramData folder.

Here’s a hint – pretty much all of it.

@Ted:

You’re calling a Greek Computer Science student out on several points of abject ignorance and prejudice?

Shame on you!!!

@Ted:

On a side-note (but hardly an unimportant one), it’s interesting, as you point out, what a stunning success the Registry model in Vista/7 is when coupled with UAC.

Sooner or later the Loons will get round to copying it, I suppose.

It will be interesting to see quite how badly they can get this simple combination of two simple ideas completely wrong.

@Ted

I am just telling my experiences as an average user. It may have been because my account was set up as “admin” (not the super admin thing you get when you right click and select “run as administrator”, but the highest level an account can be in Vista), but the UAC did popped out a lot. My friend’s fujitsu siemens laptop that came with Vista and UAC also popped out a lit (i remember because i helped him get rid of it). Anyway, Windows 7’s UAC is the right thing.

@DrLoser
You are right about greek computer science students being clueless. You don’t want to see how we pass lessons here. We have a thing called “September exams” where you can re-take the final exams for all the lessons you didn’t pass the previous academic year. For some reason, the things they ask in the September exams are ridiculously easy, so all you need is a faint grasp of the lesson to pass. The universities here are run by the government, you see.

@K:

It’s no different over here in the UK; since we went to “league tables,” everything educational went to pot. Apart from the private schools, of course, who don’t give a toss and consequently shunt kids through Russell Group universities based on nothing much more than arrogance. But at least they teach them something along the way.

The latest brain-wave of one of the hoi en telei around here (I speak of telei as in “examination authorities) is to transform all exams for 18 year olds to multiple choice.

It’s beyond a joke, really.

Then again, I put the minimum effort into my University exams, and that might explain why I am where I am. I suppose it’s all down to personal inclination in the long run.

@K:

One more thing. Have you considered a month-long blitz on the Pog-Blog? I can assure you that it has its own rewards.

In your case I would seriously, seriously, recommend it, because Robert would have absolutely no clue how to respond to you. Me, I’m an obvious fit for a M$ Shill, but you’d be quite refreshing.

Go on, make me proud! I’ll even write to your tutor, commending your out-of-horus work…

Horus being Egyptian, obv, but there’s nothing wrong with a Greek Spring.

UAC only pops up when an application needs to do something with elevated privileged, such as update the registry or write to protected portions of the hard drive.

Simply opening Computer should not be triggering UAC. The only reason I can imagine it would is because you have some sort of extension installed in Explorer that needs elevated privs.

Or, in fact, that there’s a particularly nasty rooty kit somewhere on the machine.

Which is what I first thought when I read Kurkos’ post.

Yeah, I was going to suggest a virus as well. In which case, UAC is doing exactly what it set out to do.

It would be like a pilot complaining about how annoying the engine fire alarm was.

@Kurkos
You know nothing at all how UAC works in Vista and how is it different in Win7. UAC dialogs should be requested by program explicitly: either directly (through requestedPrivileges section in manifest or with ShellExecute with command set runas) or indirectly (IFileOperation or compatibility shim)

Unelevated process’s token just doesn’t have Administrators SID (well, it has it in deny-only mode) as well as any of the administrators’ privileges. So, if a program asks for write access to Program Files or HKLM – this request will just fail right away – no UAC dialogs will appear.

As for Win7/Vista UAC difference – it just has a hardcoded list of programs that have their elevation without user intervention. It’s no better than *nix sudo (though if you set it up to work in “sudo”-ish mode, i.e. asking for password on each invocation – it’s perfectly secure) – just as easy to bypass. Microsoft never positioned UAC as a security feature (because it doesn’t draw security boundary) – so they did it deliberately. For that reason one of the first things I do on a newly installed Windwos 7 box is to set UAC level to the “Vista mode” (“Always notify me” in UAC settings) – still I can spend weeks without ever seeing UAC dialog.

“Oh, you open Start menu and see edit box with “Search programs and files” it it. What could it possibly mean?”

In your little world, people read nonsensical text in nonsensical places, over here in reality they simply ignore it.
Well known fact, actually.

“Right after you show me how many users still want to manually lookup for an item in dozens of menus.”

So you have no data, and yet you insist that searching through Start menu is an acceptable solution.

So, basically you’re making things up so as to support your world view. Bravo Sir.

“Did you even use Vista or 7?”

Did you? Your attitude is almost indistinguishable from the loons, I asked you before: are you typing from a terminal somewhere?

“Yep, that’s why XP is dying off for good.”

It has almost the same amount of users as Windows 7, for such an antiquated OS, that is an excellent achievement.

The fact that even Win7 struggles to displace XP, should worry everyone at MS, alas they seem to have the same world view as yourself Linsuxoid (that is: la la la Vista is better, we can’t hear you, la la la), while you can afford this kind of behaviour, MS cannot.

“Care to provide your definition of “pester” and “all the time” then?”

Any attempt to question the user is an annoyance; as far as security is concerned, UAC is of no use, users will elevate any program that requests it -> there is no “benefit” outside of pestering.

Again, security is achieved by silently sandboxing all non system programs, not by expecting that users make informed decisions (they can’t).

“Oh, like App-V for example? Ah, that doesn’t exist in your universe yet.”

I wasn’t aware that MS ships App-V with W7HP (or Starter for that matter, or Pro, or Ultimate), pray tell, since when does windows automatically (and invisibly) sandbox applications?

Or were you making things up, again?

“Not “users” – only raving loonatics.”

Obviously – it’s not the fault of the OS, it’s the fault of the users!
You should be defending Linux, it would be more appropriate, you’d fit right in.

“Quite “surprisingly” you’ve never even seen [WP7] and still have Strong Opinion.”

Why would I buy one of the worst phones ever to be seen by my eyes? To satisfy your demands, perhaps?

Anyway, given the video reviews on YT, I saw enough to be certain that Metro is something I do not want to touch with a mile long pole, let alone with my hands.

One year after the launch of Metro phone it should be clear, that majority of smartphone users feels the same way.

“Let me guess, you haven’t ever worked with Vista. /me covers my crystal ball”

Should I post my Vista and 7 desktop screenshots? I have plenty of them (I’d love to see screenshots of your Vista desktop by the way, oh and that BASH thing you’re using… that’s not actually Vista, or W7).

Also, your crystal ball sucks I’m afraid, try Apple’s iPalantír, waay better.
Be warned though: whenever you look into the Stone of Fruits, Steve can see you…

> Well known fact, actually
[Citation needed], actually

> So you have no data, and yet you insist that searching through Start menu is an acceptable solution.
So, you are saying it like YOU have any data to support your point?

> So, basically you’re making things up so as to support your world view. Bravo Sir
So, I basically only told for MYSELF all the way, while you’ve made generalized (and outright stupid) claims about things you’ve never tried without even trying to back them up.

> Did you?
I did for about 3 years and am using Win7 for another 3+ years. And you, again, can’t even answer basic question (that’s probably because my crystal ball didn’t lie to me)

> Your attitude is almost indistinguishable from the loons
So it’s me who makes ignorant but strong opinionated generalized assertions about things I’ve never tried myself? Oh, wait. It looks more like YOUR attitude.

> It has almost the same amount of users as Windows 7
Long live our beloved People’s Republic of China.

> The fact that even Win7 struggles to displace XP
Oh, “struggles to displace”. You don’t seem to be old enough to remember REAL struggle with which XP has been replacing that total crap called Windows 98. Windows 7 in fact does much better job in replacing “good enough” XP than that.

> Any attempt to question [blablalba]
Tried and failed to provide definition of “pester”, didn’t even try to define “all the time”. Now here are facts:
1. Single click UAC dialogs are less obtrusive than any other implementation of on demand elevation – speak about “pester”
2. As I’ve told I don’t even see them for days (something weeks) – speak about “all the time”

> Again, security is achieved by silently sandboxing all non system programs
Now I really would like to see your credentials. You clearly have to have a lot of relevant experience to not understand that
1. Sandboxing is awesome and things, but you should have applications written with sandbox restrictions in mind. In order to get reasonable backcompat you need bloody virtualization
2. You should provide means to “break out” of this virtualization because many programs rely on direct interaction with other programs. And you need to provide a way to administer this mess (and loons like you are enraged by UAC “pestering them all the time”)
3. Virtualization means that all sandboxes have their own copies of many things instead of sharing. You’ve been so happy with Vista’s hardware requirements that you want to stretch them a bit more, right?

> I wasn’t aware that MS ships App-V with W7HP
Moving the goalposts? You’ve requested technical ability to do this for YOURSELF. Now you want this to be forced on EVERYBODY inbox. You know what, most of the people are pretty much happy with what they have.

> Obviously – it’s not the fault of the OS, it’s the fault of the users!
Again, users are OK. Only loons complain. Unfortunately loons tend to be the loudest.

> Why would I buy one of the worst phones ever to be seen by my eyes? To satisfy your demands, perhaps?
Strong opinions again. It’s a matter of taste (and WP7 interface is bestest and awesomest of all), but how about you not making generalized assertions about things YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT?

> One year after the launch of Metro phone it should be clear, that majority of smartphone users feels the same way.
One year later it’s pretty much set in stone that WP7 has best design and usability – there are other problems that are holding it back.

> Should I post my Vista and 7 desktop screenshots?
And it prove what?

> I’d love to see screenshots of your Vista desktop by the way
I’m not using it for 3+ years already. Why should I?

Oh, and speaking about appealing to common knowledge. Even if you want to completely rely on it, here is the “fact”: Vista has been crap right after it was released, but all problems have been fixed by the arrival of SP1 in a year after GA.

Want to argue with “millions of customers”?

Oh, and I’ve just remembered that UAC in fact does have virtualization (for x86 applications only, Ctrl+F Virtualization here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb756960.aspx), so stupid apps, that want unrestricted access to Program Files or HKLM in fact got it. That makes you “point” (or whatever it is) even harder to defend.

“So, you are saying it like YOU have any data to support your point?”

Don’t need any; Vista’s market reception confirms that majority of users agrees with me.

“...while you’ve made generalized …”

The market agrees, ergo I am correct.

“...and outright stupid…”

Aww, are we being upset?

“...things you’ve never tried…”

Your claim, also, you’re making things up again.

“I did for about 3 years and am using Win7 for another 3+ years.”

I very much doubt your words.
Again, BASH is not Vista (PS would be, but you wouldn’t know about that).

“And you, again, can’t even answer basic question…”

What question did you want answered, (it seem to me you don’t even follow what you are saying).

“So it’s me who makes ignorant but strong opinionated generalized assertions about things I’ve never tried myself?”

Yes.

“Oh, wait. It looks more like YOUR attitude.”

Do try and don’t project your problems onto me, OK? Thanks.

“Long live our beloved People’s Republic of China.”

I’ve never seen the split by countries; however, with US and Europe having more than 500 Million citizens (who need more than one license per person); W7 hasn’t nearly reached market saturation in the west, let alone the developed world.

“You don’t seem to be old enough to remember…”

Aww, so tell me, what did you use in the 80’s?

“...REAL struggle with which XP has been replacing that total crap called Windows 98.”

So silly, everyone hated classic Windows, after a week with NT, no one user would suffer Win9x.

It seem to me you never used Windows in the old days, again your Linux CLI is not Windows.

“Windows 7 in fact does much better job in replacing “good enough” XP than that.”

No.

“Single click UAC dialogs are less obtrusive…”

No. You fail to understand – there should be NO ELEVATION for ANY PROGRAM NO MATTER WHAT.

Users will always elevate, thus the prompts are just an annoyance – they pester incessantly, but achieve nothing.

“As I’ve told I don’t even see them for days (something weeks) – speak about “all the time”“

Nonsense, any program that saves into its own directory will (under default install into Program Files) always trigger them (the reason you don’t see them is because Linux doesn’t have UAC).

By the way, I almost never see those prompts, but then, I don’t matter; normal users do.

“Now I really would like to see your credentials.”

Sure you would; if you’d like to stand by your words, you can provide us with your name, surname and CV. Go ahead.

As to your little “LOOK AT ME I AM SO SMART AND KNOLEGABLE ABOUT SANDBOXING AND VIRTUALIZATION” speech, I simply refer you to Lion and iOS.

“You’ve requested technical ability to do this for YOURSELF.”

No. I have no interest in manually maintaining software and OS (as it is, I have to some of that, but I don’t want to).

“You know what, most of the people are pretty much happy with what they have.”

No. Most people are very happy with iPads, iPhones and Macs – nobody likes the PC experience of “setup.exe questioning tirades” and removing crap that unconstrained programs leave behind them.

Not only do you know nothing about how current market leaders work (yes, iPads are market leaders in the PC market), nothing about the Mac OS X Lion (remember those links to Arstechnica’s review that you posted yourself?) and nothing about how Win8 Metro apps will work either.

“Again, users are OK.”

No, they’re not, the existence of all those apps that promise to clean their PC (useless at best, malware at worst), show people have terrible problems with programs that trash Windows – compulsory sandboxing is long overdue.

“...[Metro is] a matter of taste…”

I don’t think it’s “a matter of taste” when the market completely rejects a product so clearly. Some things are truly ugly, and then there is Metro.

“...but how about you not making generalized assertions about things YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT?”

All I have to do, is look at the market success of WP7 – there is none – to know I’m quite right about it.

“One year later it’s pretty much set in stone that WP7 has best design and usability – there are other problems that are holding it back.”

No. But you are free to try to defend WP7, it will be quite amusing to read your excuses for it.

“I’m not using it for 3+ years already. Why should I [post screenshots]?”

Oh I see, so we just have to believe your word that you’ve ever seen Vista (other than screenshots on the net) yourself.

You know, you’ve made false claims about Vista before, when I asked about screenshots, you backed out pretty quickly, I have to say I’m having difficult time believing your claims, I think you’ve never used Vista.

“Oh, and I’ve just remembered that UAC in fact does have virtualization…”

It’s interesting you didn’t know about that, you see, if you ever used Vista (or W7) you would have known, because it causes certain issues with old shell extensions and programs.

Be that as it may, the problem with UAC virtualization is that you cannot turn it on in the .exe property panel, and you cannot request it in the elevation prompt.
Once NT6 gives you the UAC prompt you can either elevate (no containment) or not (program does not start), there is no option to sandbox/virtualize apps; if there was, well, let’s just say NT6 would be a much better OS (I’m understating it, obviously).

Reality check 1: Market is what actually has been sold and not what’s been written by tech bloggers (same ones who praise Linux). And, I’ve already told, even tech bloggers agree that MS solved all Vista problems in SP1

Reality check 2: iOS DOES HAVE apps that are designed with sandboxing in mind (so does WP7, Win8 and others). And Lion sandboxing is a feature for developers to use (on par with win2k era CreateRestrictedToken + job objects) – not something to run LEGACY applications (you can, but you’ll have backcompat problems). Just to give you some idea of the Apple’s approach http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/11/apple-pushes-back-sandboxing-deadline-as-devs-struggle-with-tradeoffs.ars (in case you don’t grasp what it tells: developers DO NEED to do additional work to support sandboxing and these changes are not trivial so Apple extends deadline) and that with Apple’s usual attitude of not caring about compatibility.

Reality check 3: Just about everyone complained about XP being a memory hog (whopping 128Mb of memory just to make it sort of work – that’s mostly on mid 90th+ machines with 16-64Mb of mem), about everyone complained about compatibility problems with DOS/Win9x programs and so on. It took A LOT of time for XP to phase Win9x out.

I don’t ask to deanonymize – just tell us what sort of software development experience do you have. I’ll start. I’ve spent most of my professional life writing WinNT kernel mode drivers (though mostly for virtual devices – not real hardware). I’ve also had several userspace projects – application to centralize Windows administration, crossplatform (Windows 9x/NT, OSX, basic Linux) network inventory (hardware/software) assesment and some more. Last 4 years I’ve mostly been working on writing automated tests for various things (NDIS drivers, Hyper-V, several internal development tools). Enough to give some basic idea. Feel free to ask questions in any of those areas to check my credentials. Now your turn, please.

> I’ve never seen the split by countries
gs.statcounter.com

> Aww, so tell me, what did you use in the 80’s?
I didn’t use anything – I was a child. I’m perfectly OK with you being older than me, but then it just means that you don’t remember early early 00th or you’ve had this same distorted reality and you remember it.

> Nonsense, any program that saves into its own directory will (under default install into Program Files) always trigger them
First, how many programs still save into its directory? Second, no, if it tries to save something to Program Files it’s either got virtualized (http://i.imgur.com/B9ETS.png) or fail right away (and this has been explained right here in this thread). Again, have you ever worked with Vista or Windows7?

> It’s interesting you didn’t know about that,
And what exactly gave you idea that I didn’t know that? Quite obviously it is YOU who didn’t know. And it is you who didn’t use Vista (UAC didn’t in fact “pester all the time”, did it?).

> No. Most people are very happy with iPads, iPhones and Macs – nobody likes the PC experience of “setup.exe questioning tirades” and removing crap that unconstrained programs leave behind them.
Again what evidense do you have to back your claims?

Now, unless you want to actually provide some evidence to your words, and stop being a stupid troll (you didn’t answer ANY of my direct questions – just kept trying to attack me personally and confuse your own taste with that of “general public”) – I’ll spare myself from this idiocy.

Lol, another article about how Lion “just works” sandbox http://www.cultofmac.com/113977/os-x-lion-sandboxing-is-a-killjoy-destined-to-ruin-our-mac-experience/ (there are over 9000 of them). I hope you understand difference between virtualization (including jails/zones) and sandboxing?

“As to your little “LOOK AT ME I AM SO SMART AND KNOLEGABLE ABOUT SANDBOXING AND VIRTUALIZATION” speech, I simply refer you to Lion and iOS.”

Lion doesn’t sandbox or virtualize in any security sense. iOS sandboxes, but it has a huge trade-off when it comes to flexibility. I’m sure you’d be one of the users who found it frustrating not to be able to copy your music to an email, or save a PDF (or other downloaded file) from Safari. Would you really want these trade offs in your desktop OS? Because unless a LOT of effort is put into making a smarter sandboxing system, you’re going to essentially have iOS.

Besides, probably the most liberal sandboxed software is Flash but apparently everyone hates it so much they couldn’t possibly have gotten it right. right?

“Reality check1…”

Yeah, iOS is successful, while Metro barely has any sales.
So you agree with me. Wonderful; why the argumentation then?

“Reality check 2…”

Again you agree with me.
(As far as the need for devs to adapt their programs for Lion is concerned – Apple always expected devs to tightly follow their whims, nothing new here; MS always provided backcompat all the way to the beginning of time, Microsoft’s sandbox has to work with old and un-adapted programs; Apple’s does not. It’s just how it is…)

“Reality check 3…”

I certainly didn’t complain about XP, despite of it being noticeably slower on my PC at that time, instead I simply upgraded after a while, WorkedForMe™.

“I’ve spent most of my professional life…”

I see, so you have limited knowledge about user experience, and limited understanding of how users perceive their programs and computers in general (at best). OK.

I’ll now remind you, that you have been making generalised claims about what constitutes a good UI, and what systems provide users with the best experience, despite having no knowledge about any of that.

At the same time you have been accusing me of what you have been doing yourself. Awesome.

And now for my point of view: I speak solely from end user POV, I have no intention of claiming any professional knowledge of any area, what-so-ever.

But, just like any filmgoer (without being a director or actor etc.) can clearly know when they see a bad movie; end users can clearly recognize bad programs (and bad UIs) – the market share reflects that.

And just because you disagree with end users (no wonder given your career), that doesn’t mean they are wrong.

And so we come to my statements: I actually didn’t know how bad WP7 is until I saw side by side comparisons of iOS, Android and WP (I have little to no interest in smartphones).

Only after that, did I understand why nobody was getting WinPhones, you see, where I live, the carriers have massively pushed WP7 throughout winter and spring of 2011, and yet there doesn’t seem to be much adoption (I haven’t seen any numbers, but I also haven’t seen any WP phones in use; iPhone, however, was sold out in seconds – every time).

I took a look at stat counter BTW, and, well, XP is doing better than I expected, with 25% in US and 30% in Europe, I’d say it’s extremely successful (given its age and issues).

“First, how many programs still save into its directory?”

Every old program does.

“Second, no, if it tries to save something to Program Files it’s either got virtualized…”

Possibly, but it doesn’t change the fact that many programs (not even that old) still trigger UAC prompt, since users will want to use them, there will be no containment (unless you think anyone will abstain from using their programs).

Google chrome solves this by installing into AppData, however there still is no protection for users own files – any bug (or Google malevolence) and you better have your backups ready (and ordinary users never do).

“...or fail right away…”

Either UAC will be promptly disabled, or XP will be installed (I will leave it to you to decide which is worse).

“Again, have you ever worked with Vista or Windows7?”

Aww, making things up again (I like how you try to spin your claims as questions).

“And what exactly gave you idea that I didn’t know that?”

The fact that you didn’t know that, gives me the idea that you didn’t know that.

“Quite obviously it is YOU who didn’t know.”

Do try and stop projecting (will this request need to be repeated all the time?).

“And it is you who didn’t use Vista…”

Projecting, again…

“Again what evidense do you have to back your claims?”

You are crazy if you think people tolerate the common setup experience on Windows, literally crazy.

“Now, unless you want to actually provide some evidence to your words…”

You want a public opinion survey? OK. But you’ll have to pay for it (now, I don’t know any North American firms, but I could point you to local firms, I fear they would be useless to you, however).

“I’ll spare myself from this idiocy.”

You mean you’ll stop trolling about things you don’t (by your own words) know anything about. Excellent!

Oh by the way, you wanted my CV? Tough luck mate, anonymous trolls on the net really aren’t entitled to it.

@Admin

“Because unless a LOT of effort is put into making a smarter sandboxing system, you’re going to essentially have iOS.”

Well, yes, that is the gist of it. No interaction between programs and no touching of things outside of programs own sandbox.
There is no other way to fix the common reliability issues for end users.

And I don’t need it (nor would it mesh well with my needs, you are quite right about that), ordinary users do.

@RC:

“But, just like any filmgoer (without being a director or actor etc.) can clearly know when they see a bad movie; end users can clearly recognize bad programs (and bad UIs) – the market share reflects that.”

I suspect this cuts to the heart of the matter: perception.

People get seriously out of logical whack when they depend upon perception.

I, to use your example, can clearly see that “My Big Fat GrΣΣk Wedding” is a bad movie. The title alone gives it away. The only point to watching it is to wait for some eejit to say “it’s all Greek to me” (which for those obsessives who might be interested happens surprisingly late on: about forty minutes, as I recall).

On the other hand my girlfriend loved it, for some obscure reason.

The fact that “the market” perceived Vista to be bad isn’t really evidence that it was bad: just evidence that sales did not meet expectations. Technically (after SP1, which is hardly an unusual stretch for an OS), it was actually rather good. And at that point, quite a lot of your anecdotal evidence basically evaporates.

Linsuxoid, on the other hand, is clearly coming at the matter from a different perception: Raymond Chen expresses this as “the kernel view.”

Essentially, the kernel view is that all the elements are there, and we just need the “downstream” (ie user programs) to catch up.

Both perceptions are, I think, equally valid.

But, tada! The Linux desktop doesn’t really work either way round, does it?

“The fact that “the market” perceived Vista to be bad isn’t really evidence that it was bad…”

I’m afraid I must disagree here Doctor, see, the success of market driven economies versus “enlightened avant-garde class of scientific society managers” driven societies proves that markets are vastly better.

This does not mean any market driven decision is correct, it just proves than on average market driven decisions are much better (more correct as far as real world performance is concerned, as opposed to academic correctness) than top down planned economy ones are.

The market may, of course, choose on entirely non technical merits (Such as XP having a wonderful blue/beige style, and Vista having a hideous black/green nausea inducing eye-terror style).

“Technically (after SP1, which is hardly an unusual stretch for an OS), it was actually rather good.”

Sure. But that didn’t change the fact it was ugly, which MS never fixed (I and many other users did, but hacking the style engine to accept third party visual styles is not to everyone’s taste, also, it’s decidedly open sores like).

“Linsuxoid, on the other hand, is clearly coming at the matter from a different perception: Raymond Chen expresses this as “the kernel view.”“

I know. That is why he needs to shut his clapper about UIs and user preferences – he doesn’t understand them (neither do I for that matter, but at least I don’t actively deny them).

“Both perceptions are, I think, equally valid.”

Not to the users I’m afraid; they care about what is in front of them – Jim Allchin, himself, said that MS will not get credit for the (low level) work they put into Vista, how right he was.

This is why I’m so afraid that Metro will blow into everyone’s face (it’s hideous – far uglier than Vista), I don’t need any nasty disruptions and another Vista like failure could very well bring them about.

————————————

“But, tada! The Linux desktop doesn’t really work either way round, does it?”

Well, they disrespect everyone, starting with programmers, continuing with sysadmins and finishing with users.
The results are hardly surprising.

@RC

“Don’t need any; Vista’s market reception confirms that majority of users agrees with me.”

Perception is subjective. As I have pointed out in my earlier comment, the intrinsic qualities of something does not necessarily have anything to do with how people perceive it(http://tmrepository.com/fudtracker/world-class-fud-because-mud-slinging-is-the-best-w/#comment_9630). Brand names, packaging, word-of-mouth etc. are all scientifically proven to be more influential to consumer behaviors than the actual things they are buying. Or, as the old saying goes, it’s simply “mind over matter”.

“But, just like any filmgoer (without being a director or actor etc.) can clearly know when they see a bad movie; end users can clearly recognize bad programs (and bad UIs) – the market share reflects that.”

Then, as I have mentioned in Techbroil (http://www.techbroil.com/2012/01/goodbye-apple-and-go-to-hell-itunes.html?showComment=1327344623887#c4353977342431155085), Transformers: Dark of the Moon and The Twilight Saga: Ecipse are probably the greatest cinematic masterpieces of this century, according to your logic.

Vista’s market reception was largely based on media spin. I’m not saying it was a conspiracy, but there certainly was a bandwagon. It certainly wasn’t a perfect product, but SP1 fixed most of the issues people had with it. However, by that point, the hype had convinced enough people to steer clear. Don’t forget, XP got a similar reception when debuted.

But even with all that, Vista reached something like 27% of the market. That, from a user base that had longer than normal to become entrenched with XP.

7 uptake has been much faster; Faster than XP’s was, in fact. The media spun in favour of Windows this time around and painted it as vista being “new coke” and 7 being “coke classic”. In reality, the product has just has time to settle and the kinks to be ironed out.

> Linsuxoid, on the other hand, is clearly coming at the matter from a different perception: Raymond Chen expresses this as “the kernel view.”

Well, while this is generally my starting point (I’m trying to judge on technical merits first), but I’ve actually used Vista and am using 7 – and UAC doesn’t “pester” me “all the time”. In fact, as you can see on my screenshot – I have some gog.com games and they really like to save crap to its installation dir. Guess what, I didn’t even notice that it was virtualized – it just worked.

I have my own experience with UAC and while it’s more than in XP (i.e. more than 0), it’s nowhere close to being annoying.

I also have first hand experience with Luna and Aero – and I that’s mostly matter of personal taste (even if you ignore desktop composition that makes thing objectively better).

And I have first hand experience with Start menu search vs Start menu traversing through submenus. That’s mostly the personal preference as well, but search objectively allows you to find whatever you don’t know where and list of most frequent programs allows you to not use search when it’s not necessary.

So in fact I have both technical merits and user experience covered in my assesment. While RCSE quite clearly doesn’t have technical side covered and from what he tells, I doubt that he has first hand user experience either.

“While RCSE quite clearly doesn’t have technical side covered and from what he tells, I doubt that he has first hand user experience either.”

Well, plenty of people have experience with bottled water as well. It certainly doesn’t help with their decisions in spending their money, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XfPAjUvvnIc#t=304s

Premium garden hose water. Hmmm…

@RCSE
Here you go again.

Yes, I’m not a UI designer. I assume that neither you are (I’m still waiting for your credentials).

So I didn’t generalize MY experience onto everyone. It was you, who told how ugly Aero GENERALLY is, how god awful new Start menu GENERALLY is and how OMGpestering UAC GENERALLY is. Two of your points are clearly a matter of taste and Windows has always had enough (I sometimes feel that it’s way more than enough) ways to customize its look. And third one is plain wrong TECHNICALLY. It doesn’t happen because it cannot happen. Period.

It was you who started to make technical claims about virtualization/sandboxing without, I assume, any relevant experience in the field (I’m still waiting for your credentials).

Your “market assesmets” are laughable too. First you tell that Vista is awful because in 3 years it didn’t get more market share than XP did in 6, right after that you tell that nobody (generalizing again) could stand Windows’s installation experience as compared to MacOSX’s. Last time you’ve checked market share figures for these two is..?

And as for your old predictions that Windows 8 imminent failure because of Metro. Care to provide your definition of failure?

Last time you’ve checked market share figures for these two is..?

When he was downing a bottle of “Agua de Culo”, probably.

“So in fact I have both technical merits and user experience covered in my assesment.”

Well, you haven’t actually; you’ve produced statements of personal taste, that majority of users don’t agree with, and you’ve produced no proof what so ever that any of your claims are actually correct (hint: searching for a program whose name you don’t quite remember, but will recognise when you see it, is infinitely slower – i.e. you will never complete the task – than browsing for it).

“Yes, I’m not a UI designer.”

Clearly. Any other revelation?

“It was you who started to make technical claims about virtualization/sandboxing…”

I made none, I consider running non tested apps outside of a sandbox to be a total no no. And I know for a fact no user ever tests them.

Sandboxes are not a matter of choice, they are a matter of necessity; while I’ve been using them for nearly a decade, most users cannot be expected to; sandboxes need to be mandatory and user transparent – yes like iPad.

“So I didn’t generalize MY experience onto everyone.”

Yes you did.

“Two of your points are clearly a matter of taste…”

Taste matters, especially when 75% of the market rejects a product that should have more than 90% usage.

“Windows has always had enough (I sometimes feel that it’s way more than enough) ways to customize its look…”

Yeah sure, but if running style patchers is your thing, then you can just as well run Linux.
Normal users, however, will not want to.

“Your “market assesmets” are laughable too…”

As if I made any market assessments…

Anyway; Vista was awful, but you can keep saying it wasn’t, won’t change anything; and users always merely tolerated Windows annoyances, partly due to no competition (unless you count Linux as competition) and partly due to Apple being completely non compatible by choice.

Nowadays, you can switch to a Mac and keep using Windows in a WM (more or less transparently), the days MS could afford to keep things the way they always were are over – cue in the MS appstore.

And now, please explain why W8 will not use the standard setup.exe experience if it was so great and un-problematic.

“Care to provide your definition of failure?”

Why would I? Only MS can decide what constitutes that, and only their shareholders can decide whether they agree with management’s view of things or not.

To me W8 will be a failure if I won’t want to use it (depends whether Metro can be disabled in a non problematic way).

To anyone trying to sell me a Metro app it’ll be a failure if I won’t be running the W8 app store.

To MS, I would assume, the repetition of Vista would be a failure.

What about you? You seem to think WinPhone is a success with about a percent of market share; would you consider W8 a success if it gets 25% in mid 2015?

“I’m still waiting for your credentials”

Provide your own, if you wish; nobody stopping you.

Okay, providing actual credentials is a bit much, but some background on your experience can’t hurt. For example, if you manage an IT department with 50 workstations, you’re more likely to have run into issues than the average user.

I made it quite clear that my observations are based on what ordinary users think (sure it’s an anecdote, but market share confirms it).

I am not, and will not be making any claims of being an expert.

Neither did Linsuxoid, since he provided no proof to his career claims (apparently, he doesn’t understand that).

Well, it’s getting annoying. You know that I hate idiots (either genuine ones or those who think that pretending to be an idiot is a good way to “troll”).

> Well, you haven’t actually; you’ve produced statements of personal taste, that majority of users don’t agree with
Majority of users. Just fvcking stop appealing to “majority of users”. You haven’t provide A SIGNLE source to back your idiocy up. So by any means I have more authority if you seek one.

> and you’ve produced no proof what so ever that any of your claims are actually correct
No proof that it’s more convenient FOR ME? What kind of proof do you want. Testimony under oath? And I’ve actually provided several proofs for more general points – you’ve so far provided none.

> Clearly. Any other revelation?
You are clearly not an UI designer either. Nor you have any relation to software engineering.

> I made none
What a disgusting slimy little troll. This is gold immediately following by yet another ignorant statement.

> As if I made any market assessments…
Oh, you didn’t appeal to market share figures jumping to arbitrary conclusions right away.

> And now, please explain why W8 will not use the standard setup.exe experience if it was so great and un-problematic.
And now please provide ANY evidence that it won’t. Oh, it will. Only Metro style apps will be packaged into appx-s – not everything.

> Taste matters, especially when 75% of the market rejects a product that should have more than 90% usage.
Um, not doing “market assesments” again?

> “Care to provide your definition of failure?”
> Why would I?
Just to not look like a disgusting slimy loon that would backpedal any claims of his own?

> You seem to think WinPhone is a success
Strawman? I didn’t even imply that. WinPhone struggles in the market, but it’s not because of interface (which most real designers actually praise) or because of bad user experience (user satisfaction rates are actually pretty high for those who actually managed to buy WP7 device)

> Provide your own, if you wish; nobody stopping you.
I’ve told enough. You can ask your questions to verify. You’ve told NOTHING. At. All.

> I made it quite clear that my observations are based on what ordinary users think (sure it’s an anecdote, but market share confirms it).
Oh how cute. Not only you are generalising based on preselected sample (I assume that you communicate mainly with users who have similarities with yourself – most of us does), but you also play with any market share number as if they undeniably prove your point. I have bad news: you are a loon. Archetypical loon.

> Neither did Linsuxoid, since he provided no proof to his career claims (apparently, he doesn’t understand that).
You want to challenge my expertise – feel free to ask questions.

As for you, you don’t have any relevant experience based on what you’ve already told.
I just want you to actually tell us what experience you can proove.

“Well, it’s getting annoying…”

I’m so sorry, are you annoying yourself? Well, allow me to suggest that you stop.

I mean, think of the ch… yourself.

“Majority of users…”

You provided proof for that, remember that stat counter link?

“So by any means I have more authority if you seek one.”

Well, fine, it’s just that you have proven what I said.

“What kind of proof do you want.”

Me? I would go with user opinion surveys – you get a representative sample of the target populace and you survey them (that way you can also ask users why they chose as they did).

“And I’ve actually provided several proofs for more general points…”

The only proof that you provided is stat counter statistic (which agrees with my claims), even that one could have terribly flawed methodology; but you know what, I don’t care, you’re obviously not able to understand what is necessary to prove or disprove what general public wants.

“You are clearly not an UI designer either. Nor you have any relation to software engineering.”

Your opinion is fine with me. Were you trying to make a point? Or did you think I was making any claims of supposed expertise in any field?

“Only Metro style apps will be packaged into appx-s – not everything.”

Exactly; and therein lies the problem, MS is unwilling to fix the desktop part, the core problem will be left untouched, and if Metro apps don’t appeal to the public (and I think they won’t) W8 will be just an ugly version of W7.

“I didn’t even imply that [WP7 is a success].”

You did, and here is the quote:
“(and WP7 interface is bestest and awesomest of all)”
Remember, we are talking about the UI here, not hardware.

And another quote:
“One year later it’s pretty much set in stone that WP7 has best design and usability…”
This coming from a person that later admitted he has no UI or design knowledge or experience.

And then you said:
“...there are other problems that are holding it back.”
So you did claim WP7 is a total success, and then you appealed to the myth of carriers and tech media killing it – both of which are actually supporting Win Phone, as far as I can tell.

“(user satisfaction rates are actually pretty high for those who actually managed to buy WP7 device)”

Oh really, well gosh, so about 1% of the market likes Metro? Well that is good news for W8 then, with one percent they will totally… ahem, yes, and here is the problem, with only one percent of the market, any major MS product would be a total and complete failure.

“I’ve told enough. You can ask your questions to verify.”

No you haven’t, the only way to confirm your statements is to know your name and check you out with your former and current employers, any other way and you can keep telling us any fantasy story you like.

You need to understand one thing: I don’t care about your credentials, or experience; when I need information I can rely upon, I do not go to random blogs and forums filled with opinionated users.

This forum here is a nice resource to harvest arguments against FLOSS trolls, and that is all it is to me.

That, and I also like to chat with our good Doctor.

“(I assume that you communicate mainly with users who have similarities with yourself – most of us does)”

Nope, I know a fair amount of people who have exactly the opposite preferences than myself – people not unlike you, actually.

You seem to be using the term “disgusting slimy loon” while referring to me; I asked you before to stop projecting, I see I was right in expecting this will have to be repeated on and on.

“I have bad news: you are a loon. Archetypical loon.”

And there we go: you’re projecting again. Why won’t you stop.

“You want to challenge my expertise – feel free to ask questions.”

No. I don’t care about your expertise, even if there is any; sorry about that.

“As for you, you don’t have any relevant experience based on what you’ve already told.”

And I don’t care what you believe, you see, I don’t need your approval or acceptance.
You didn’t really believe I would care for your opinion? Or did you…

“I just want you to actually tell us what experience you can proove.”

Interesting ending, given the fact you have not provided any proof of your supposed experience, there is an old saying “When caught stealing, point to another and yell: thief, thief!” were you just caught pretending to be an expert, here on the internet (you know, like the loons are)?

Shocking, I say.

Well, majority of human think you are an idiot. Here is proof: http://z0r.de/589

It actually holds a bit higher standard then your “proofs”, because, well, at least there is something at all.

“You provided proof for that, remember that stat counter link?”

And where’s yours? Remember – it was you who insisted on bring up the “market” as part of your argument. I have even made fun of you by pointing you to such “cinematic masterpieces” as Transformers and Twilight. You painted yourself to a corner, and now you are blaming others for your undoing?

“Well, fine, it’s just that you have proven what I said.”

About what? Please specify.

“Me? I would go with user opinion surveys – you get a representative sample of the target populace and you survey them (that way you can also ask users why they chose as they did).”

And what questions would you ask them, then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hBL2QfgQES4#t=144s

“The only proof that you provided is stat counter statistic (which agrees with my claims), even that one could have terribly flawed methodology; but you know what, I don’t care, you’re obviously not able to understand what is necessary to prove or disprove what general public wants.”

The general public wants bottled water, Transformers and Twilight. What’s your point to be exact?

“Exactly; and therein lies the problem, MS is unwilling to fix the desktop part, the core problem will be left untouched, and if Metro apps don’t appeal to the public (and I think they won’t) W8 will be just an ugly version of W7.”

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Remember that bottled water thing?

No “Agua de Culo” for you.

Oh, and, by all means, listen to what this lady has to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RdWXI3GYllA#t=235s

“You did, and here is the quote:

(and WP7 interface is bestest and awesomest of all)

Remember, we are talking about the UI here, not hardware.”

You have trouble understanding the bestest and awesomest irony, don’t you?

“Why would I? Only MS can decide what constitutes that, and only their shareholders can decide whether they agree with management’s view of things or not.

To me W8 will be a failure if I won’t want to use it (depends whether Metro can be disabled in a non problematic way).”

Sheeze… Either you must be one angry shareholder, or I have just witnessed the fastest instance of one contradicting oneself of all time.

“You seem to be using the term 'disgusting slimy loon’ while referring to me; I asked you before to stop projecting, I see I was right in expecting this will have to be repeated on and on.”

No, you are actually a pretty disgusting slimy loon, just not the kind you expect.

“And I don’t care what you believe, you see, I don’t need your approval or acceptance.

You didn’t really believe I would care for your opinion? Or did you…”

Sure, people can’t stop you from pursuing the least characterizable of all things, but, at the same, it’s simply reasonable for others to point out the futility and murkiness in your obsession. This entirely pointless debate all boils down to the facts that you are unwilling to accept how arbitrary and metaphysical your demands really are and that you are expecting people to examine them scientifically despite the obvious fruitlessness of such an exercise. You can’t expect people to prove or disprove based on nothing more than personal judgments of whether something is ugly or not, and that, my friend, is exactly why people call you a “loon”.

“Just to not look like a disgusting slimy loon that would backpedal any claims of his own?”

I don’t see it’s the fault of someone else that you have decided to misrepresent his position by accusing them of one that you have originally taken up but later found untenable. It’s rather the fault that you are indeed disgusting and slimy.

“And there we go: you’re projecting again. Why won’t you stop.”

That’s not “projecting”. You have simply backpedaled to the point of trying to swap sides with your detractor. In other words, you are just being unreasonable and absurd.

“And I don’t care what you believe, you see”

But why do people need to care about what you believe about UIs and such, then? Being obtuse much?

“Interesting ending, given the fact you have not provided any proof of your supposed experience”

And you have said repeatedly that you don’t care, even though it’s obvious that you were the first to start frothing about UAC, sandboxing and what not. Now, mind if I ask you what your credentials are on such matter?

@Linsuxoid:

“Well, majority of human think you are an idiot.”

You are projecting again. If I ask you to stop every time, when will you actually manage it? This year, next, ever?

(Also, I am sorry if you feel that majority of human think you are an idiot, Linsuxoid, it’s very sad to hear that.)

“You are projecting again. If I ask you to stop every time, when will you actually manage it? This year, next, ever?”

Ineffectual comebacks are ineffectual.

Trolling 101 from RCSE:
1. MajorityOfUsers
2. NoU
3. NoU
4. NoU
5. NoU
6. NoU

Do you even realize how pathetic you are? Even Adam does better than you do. It’s a level of mentally handicapped teenager (or a really smart pre-teen). I’m wondering again just how old are you (not that age necessarily means anything, but certain behaviours could be easily explained by certain age).

@FT

“And where’s yours? Remember – it was you who insisted on bring up the “market” as part of your argument.”

When LS’s links provide the proof that supports my argument, I need not provide any myself.

As far as I know however, both Vista and MetroPhone are abject failures on the market.

And I never saw any evidence disproving that, nor anybody claiming otherwise (except MS fanboys, who like to claim Vista was a success and that Metro will take off any moment now).

“You painted yourself to a corner…”

How so? I’m right on Vista, I’m right on Metro (on the phone); don’t see how you came up with your conclusion.

“About what? Please specify.”

Oh you didn’t get it… right, OK.

Again:
Stat counter, that LS used to support his view, shows that XP still lingers on, Vista didn’t even touch it, and Win7 still hasn’t displaced it — a freaking 10 year old OS, that is definitely worse than NT6 is still around (!) and it has about 30% market share.

It cannot be anything but a UI issue that is stopping users from switching; or will you claim NT5 was and still is better than (or, at least, competitive with) NT6?.

“And what questions would you ask them, then?”

Why do you ask? (Did you just ask me to make a survey for the sake of an internet argument?)

“The general public wants bottled water…”

So? Do you know how bad water is in Paris (for example)? Where I live, water is more than good enough, but saying it is so everywhere is… well, uninformed.

“...Transformers and Twilight.”

Didn’t watch it, so I can’t comment. What proof do you have that it was a bad movie? What proof do you have that it got undeserved sales?

How do you define a bad movie, BTW?

(I define it as “a movie, no one wanted to see”.)

“What’s your point to be exact?”

Markets are always right (if not immediately, then in the long term).

“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”

I doubt that, can you prove your claim (you see, Linsuxoid might attack you viciously if you don’t provide proof)?

“Either you must be one angry shareholder, or I have just witnessed the fastest instance of one contradicting oneself of all time.”

I’m an angry (an overstatement, to go with your theme) user, seeing many years of freetards and mac fanatics screaming “Victory, Victory!” all over the net, when Metro-On-Windows fails.

I’m an annoyed user contemplating the requirements to switch to a Mac if MS doesn’t stop with Metro, which is an assault on my eyes.

“But why do people need to care about what you believe about UIs and such, then?”

Don’t see any reason they should.

...

Except, if they are trying to sell me something.

Obviously, MS doesn’t care about me, but they do need to care about their users in general. That would be the 90% of the market; if their core products annoy a large enough part of that 90%, they risk losing their dominance and all of the bonuses that that conveys.

So MS cannot, must not, piss off their users, which means their products cannot have any “bold” UI (let alone ugly bold UI).

To give you an example: Volkswagen – a lot of users, very plain designs; a counter example would be any sports car brand – they almost always have very pronounced visual design, if you don’t love it, you will hate it.

MS cannot afford to that, it would alienate (some of) their users; even losing 15% would be a massive blow (well, supposedly, this already happened, Apple claims to have more than 20% share of new PC’s sold in the US).

“No, you are actually a pretty disgusting slimy loon”

Thanks, hey I didn’t know you are a cretin. Why are you here? Doesn’t your kind prefer the LHB?

“...futility and murkiness in your obsession.”

What obsession?

“This entirely pointless debate all boils down to the facts that you are unwilling to accept how arbitrary and metaphysical your demands really are…”

What demands? Or do you mean my requests that LS stops projecting and slinging mud at me?

You can stop doing that too, BTW.

I know it’s a futile request, but (and call me naive) I still believe that LS (and even you) could stop acting like a**holes, if you tried hard enough; I don’t think you will though.

“You can’t expect people to prove or disprove”

It was LS that started demanding proof; you may want to talk to him about that if you don’t like it.

“...and that, my friend, is exactly why people call you a “loon”.”

Aha, so Linsuxoid spazzing out, screaming and mudslinging, proves I am a loon? Really? Well, that is some inventive reasoning.

And you two call me a loon.

I suggest you both check the nearest mirror and stop projecting yourself onto others. OK. Thanks.

I noticed an interesting thing there:

First, you quote Linsuxoid at “Posted by Linsuxoid on Feb 5, 2012 6:22 PM”:

“Just to not look like a disgusting slimy loon that would backpedal any claims of his own?”

And then you reply with:

“I don’t see it’s the fault of someone else that you have decided to misrepresent his position by accusing them of one that you have originally taken up but later found untenable. It’s rather the fault that you are indeed disgusting and slimy.”

Were you responding to Linsux there (it doesn’t look like it)?

Are you aware of who is saying what in this debate?

Or are you simply failing to properly signify to whom you are responding?

“That’s not “projecting”.”

Oh yes it is, and he’s been doing it for a while.

“You have simply backpedaled…”

No, I haven’t actually. I have to ask you again; are you sure you are following the discussion, because I think you have completely lost track.

“...to the point of trying to swap sides with your detractor.”

No. (You really haven’t a clue, have you?)

“In other words, you are just being unreasonable and absurd.”

So, why are you responding then? If I was unreasonable, then you could not actually reason with me. Your trolling is weak, I’m afraid.

“And you have said repeatedly that you don’t care…”

Just once, actually, and I really don’t; Lisuxoid can be a gardener, a pizza delivery boy or Steven Ballmer himself (that would explain why he gets so upset, if anyone criticizes MS), for all I care.

“...even though it’s obvious that you were the first to start frothing about UAC, sandboxing and what not.”

Don’t see how this relates to the first part of the statement, what are you trying say?

(A hint, because I know how hard it is for you to follow along: I care about reliability and security, both of which require some form of limiting what installed software can do; I don’t care about Linsuxoid’s career, though.)

Oh, and I do like the use of the term “frothing” there, but I think it describes Linsuxoid. I wonder, why do you respond if you’re not capable of following the discussion?

“Now, mind if I ask you what your credentials are on such matter?”

Oh look the credentials issue again, funny you should ask that, given the fact it was already answered.

You either haven’t read the discussion or cannot follow it, you misquote, you insult and call names (in a sneaky and slimy “I didn’t call you that, others do” way).

To call you a stupid troll, would be an insult to those who actually are (and I take back what I said earlier, when I called you a cretin, I don’t want to insult them either, it wouldn’t be fair).

@Linsuxoid

>Trolling 101 from RCSE:
>1. MajorityOfUsers
>2. NoU
>3. NoU
>4. NoU
>5. NoU
>6. NoU

Aww, are you upset LS?

I’m so sorry.

—————————-

Well if what I post annoys you so much, perhaps you should stop reading it?

After all, if you can’t accept reality around you, you can always close your eyes…

“How so? I’m right on Vista, I’m right on Metro (on the phone); don’t see how you came up with your conclusion.”

About what exactly? Your projection of your own personal tastes onto the general public?

At least SJVN was bothered enough to use something more tangible (i.e. US carriers) as his argument:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/five-reasons-why-windows-8-will-be-dead-on-arrival/10275

You, on the other hand, just don’t care how presumptuous you have come across to others. Look, Transformers and Twilight are popular as well. Why not make an argument on why Casablanca should feature more explosions and sparkling vampires while you are at it then?

So? Do you know how bad water is in Paris (for example)? Where I live, water is more than good enough, but saying it is so everywhere is… well, uninformed.

Nice distraction, but nonetheless completely outside the scope of the source where the subject matter in question is the multi-billion dollar industry of bottled water in the US. Now unless I have missed the new on France becoming the 51st state of the Union, may I politely ask you to have a bit of relevance in your comeback?

“It cannot be anything but a UI issue that is stopping users from switching; or will you claim NT5 was and still is better than (or, at least, competitive with) NT6?.”

You see, this is where exactly you are projecting your personal view on the UI issue onto the general populace. This is, of course, unless the numbers from the stat counter are in fact figures from UI studies rather than generalized flows of Internet traffic, which they are. There is simply no cohesion in your argument but instead you being generally loud, obnoxious and unreasonable. Is it wrong for someone to call you an “idiot” given this unsavory attitude of yours?

“Didn’t watch it, so I can’t comment. What proof do you have that it was a bad movie? What proof do you have that it got undeserved sales?”

Likewise, may I ask you what do you think in those those movies that makes them deserving of those sales? It’s not about the people buying the tickets, but simply the intrinsic qualities of the subjects themselves. To assist you with this adventure of cinematic intricacy, here are the aggregated reviews from Rotten Tomatoes:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1210749-eclipse/

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/transformers_dark_of_the_moon/

For the truly preposterous side of things, I can give you homeopathy, an “alternative” medicine that rakes up millions of dollars per annum in the UK alone by offering patience nothing more than sugar pills:

http://www.skepdic.com/homeo.html

To sum up your ridiculous argument, your view is essentially that as long as something has the most of head counts, it’s the best of out of all possible choices for [insert an arbitrary reason here]. If you think that’s sound logic, then why don’t you move to China or India, then. They have the most of the world’s population, so everything there must be super-duper bestest and awesomest in the entire globe, right? Don’t come and give me lips about the populations of those places are somehow undeserved now!

> Aww, are you upset LS?
You’re just, you know, projecting here. Majority of people still thinks your are an idiot

> Well if what I post annoys you so much, perhaps you should stop reading it?
Projecting again, pitiful little mind?

> After all, if you can’t accept reality around you, you can always close your eyes…
NoU

“Your projection of your own personal tastes onto the general public?”

Well, can you prove another reason for the hate?
(No, it wasn’t that Vista was slow, XP was too and people liked it; the drivers weren’t the issue either, there was plenty of stuff that didn’t work well on XP yet it was liked; and the media, well, they were jizzing all over themselves when Vista came out).

Here’s the deal: if people liked Vista, they would have blamed software makers for not being ready and hardware makers for being incompetent. Because they hated Vista, they tried to find any fault it had and then use it to declare they cannot use it (and that no one should).

The reason I know this, is because I saw it in real life: an XP hater tried to convince everyone around him how bad XP was – it went on for about a year and a half before he gave it up; and then he realised he could use the classic style (Luna hater, like Linsuxoid) and that he could turn the old W2k start menu on.

Suddenly, he could use XP, despite of all the things he said, all the technical arguments he made, it was all about UI, all about user experience…

So I know bullsh*t, that people throw out when they try to rationalise why they don’t want something they hate, when I see it.

Also, having realised how stupid such rationalisations are, I don’t try to find flaws (there always are) when I simply hate something.

“You, on the other hand, just don’t care how presumptuous you have come across to others.”

That is actually true, I don’t care.

“Why not make an argument on why Casablanca should feature more explosions and sparkling vampires while you are at it then?”

Well if you wanted to make money, why not make a modern high-octane film noir?
(Sin city maybe?)

“Nice distraction, but nonetheless completely outside the scope of the source where the subject matter in question is the multi-billion dollar industry of bottled water in the US.”

You didn’t make it clear you were trying to limit the scope to US alone; also, is water flawless throughout US, then?

“Is it wrong for someone to call you an “idiot” given this unsavory attitude of yours?”

Well, is it wrong for someone to call you a cretin?
Yes it is, cretins don’t deserve such unflattering comparisons.

“Likewise, may I ask you what do you think in those those movies that makes them deserving of those sales?”

Oh I don’t know, the fact people went to see them, perhaps? Apparently, word of mouth was not bad enough (this argument is coming from your point of view, where the movie is supposed to be terrible), or people wanted to see a transformers movie, no matter what.

“For the truly preposterous side of things, I can give you homeopathy, an “alternative” medicine that rakes up millions of dollars per annum in the UK alone by offering patience nothing more than sugar pills”

Do you know that tribal shamans can kill, by merely telling their victims they are going to die (something I learned during anthropology classes), are you aware how powerful persuasion actually is?

Also, the only type of medication that does not have side effects is placebo, if it will work, it’s way better than the real thing. As far as the price goes, well, would people believe cheap stuff works? No? Well, there you go then.

“To sum up your ridiculous argument, your view is essentially that as long as something has the most of head counts, it’s the best of out of all possible choices for [insert an arbitrary reason here].”

That is my argument, and it is hardly ridiculous – if it was, then communist states (managed by scientific method by a bunch of people who thought they knew better – and everybody always does) would be more successful than market driven ones.

The market argument is simple: no one knows everything, no one can tell which options are better for all, let everyone choose for themselves, those who will chose better, will be more successful and others will soon follow them (it doesn’t always work in the short term, but it always works in the long term).

So when something has the most proponents it is either a temporary fluke, or, it actually is better.

“If you think that’s sound logic, then why don’t you move to China or India, then.”

But why should I go and live there? Do they offer better career opportunities? Do Chinese even want to offer such opportunities to foreign devils?

The fact they are more powerful hardly matters…

@Linsuxoid

Aww, can you not respond with anything but NoU™?

Given up on trying to actually argue, eh? Well, at least you could try to go out in style, alas…

Let’s just deconstruct this silly nonsense from the bottom up, shall we?

“But why should I go and live there?”

Because of winning by head counts? Sure, it’s makes absolutely no sense, but it’s your way of reasoning. So don’t ask me if I know how it works, because I don’t – and it’s your problem, not mine.

“[I]f it was, then communist states (managed by scientific method by a bunch of people who thought they knew better – and everybody always does) would be more successful than market driven ones.”

By all means, then, show me such examples of such “scientific” methods and how they were conducted in these “communist states”.

Otherwise, it’s all just some (yet again) unsubstantiated claim that you have pull out of the ether.

“Also, the only type of medication that does not have side effects is placebo, if it will work, it’s way better than the real thing.”

Now at least I know whom I am not supposed to ask for advice if I break a limb or need to get my tonsils removed. Thanks!

“Do you know that tribal shamans can kill, by merely telling their victims they are going to die (something I learned during anthropology classes)[...]”

Then you should better save your money and go to a better college:

http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html

“Oh I don’t know, the fact people went to see them, perhaps?”

You are still trying to avoid that “intrinsic value” thing, don’t you? Never mind that – we’ll keep playing your game… For now.

“You didn’t make it clear you were trying to limit the scope to US alone; also, is water flawless throughout US, then?”

Watch the clips I have linked to. Listen as the guy there explains how poorly regulated and monitored bottled water actually is compared to tap water.

Also, this:

http://www.ewg.org/reports/BottledWater/Bottled-Water-Quality-Investigation

Enjoy your “Agua de Culo”.

“Well if you wanted to make money, why not make a modern high-octane film noir?”

Sure, why not? But, again, what intrinsic value is it going to have rather than, I don’t know, a bunch of CGI action scenes being slapped together?

I am pretty sure even if I watch it, I ain’t going to do so for the storyline.

And Sucker Punch.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sucker-punch-2010/

“That is actually true, I don’t care.”

Thanks for clarifying then, idiot.

“Well, can you prove another reason for the hate?”

The simple fact that one is called “Vista” and the other is called “XP”? C’mon now – aren’t you supposed to be a big fan of this “mind over matter” thing?

“Also, having realised how stupid such rationalisations are, I don’t try to find flaws (there always are) when I simply hate something.”

Oh, I am glad that we are finally (kinda) on the same channel. You are still an idiot, though.

“Because of winning by head counts?”

It does actually, but that does not mean Europe wins alongside China, it just means China wins.

Strange how you think people can just migrate to another country… feel free to do it, if you like to.

—————————————-

“By all means, then, show me such examples of such “scientific” methods and how they were conducted in these “communist states”.”

The thing is, they weren’t scientific, the people who instituted them regarded them as such; therein lies the key to market driven approach – people (or users) get to decide for themselves, on their own terms, not on terms some arrogant a**hole thinks are important.
(Not even if it’s an arrogant programmer who thinks he understands what people need or want from a computer; or an arrogant cretin who thinks people around him are idiots).

—————————————-

“Then you should better save your money and go to a better college [because I don’t believe what you said]”

So you assume those researchers, whose works were (more or less briefly) touched on lectures, could not actually perform any valid research, because supposedly they could not have made sure that no intervening issue occurred, and have never respected any proper scientific method?

Well, you surely are one spectacular idiot, interesting how you see yourself in others.

—————————————-

“You are still trying to avoid that “intrinsic value” thing, don’t you?”

Pray tell, what intrinsic value does a movie hold?
Oh, did you mean entertainment? Were those who watched entertained? If not, shouldn’t there be a lot of negative information available about that movie? Shouldn’t that stop others from going?

—————————————-

“Listen as the guy there explains how poorly regulated and monitored bottled water actually is compared to tap water.”

So USA is a filthy country where people drink crap instead of water, good to know; will remember if I ever visit.

However, I don’t care about your US centric example, sorry.

Majority here don’t actually drink bottled water (one does buy it, to get a bottle though; those are always handy to have), your examples appear as if dragged from outer space from my point of view (not to mention that bottled water actually is regulated in the civilised world – feel free to contact your local politician, if you too would like a taste of the good life others have).

“Enjoy your “Agua de Culo”.”

Go right ahead, if you wish.
BTW, that movie, you posted, merely proves that Americans believe they are living in a regulated society, they are actually right to expect that. Your attitude towards them however, tells more about you than of them.

————————————————

“The simple fact that one is called “Vista” and the other is called “XP”?”

Vista could be a bad choice of a name, wouldn’t surprise me if it was part of the problem.

“C’mon now – aren’t you supposed to be a big fan of this “mind over matter” thing?”

Misinterpreting much?
Or are you having difficulties understanding what you read?

————————————————

“Thanks for clarifying then, idiot.”

I would say I am surprised by your outburst, but I’m not.

“Oh, I am glad that we are finally (kinda) on the same channel.”

We are not, you simply fail to understand the significance of what I said, and you troll, thinking you’re witty. Unfortunately, you’re just stupid.

“You are still an idiot, though.”

So, when you have no real arguments (outside of nonsense you’ve picked up on the web) you reduce yourself to insults.

So silly and stupid.

“You are still an idiot, though.”

“So, when you have no real arguments (outside of nonsense you’ve picked up on the web) you reduce yourself to insults.
So silly and stupid.”

*cough*classic fallacy*cough*

—————-

What should I say, Hotmail is trash, and Microsoft has not realized that by now.

“Here is a tip for Microsoft: Mud slinging never works”

On paper, that should be true. Microsoft is trying to downplay Gmail to promote Hotmail and get their money. However, this mud slinging can (not will) work on many people because it’s Microsoft, so it has to be good.

This reminds me of Microsoft’s “Get the Facts” advertising campaign, which may or may not be FUD but certainly does try to downplay Linux distros in the enterprise.